[Solved] Follow Up discussion on financing eBlocker

Thanks @JanHasFun. Good call!

I also wanted to pick up on @Benne‘s quite emotional post. 

Personally I see his frustration and feel similar. I‘m also spending a shitload of time for the forum. Dealing with lot‘s of bonkers keeping me busy who are not willing to support a dime or improving the docu (cheers @robertocravallo et al 😜). 

BUT we have come this far and our project is important.

So PLEASE, I kindly ask everyone reading this to support. Money, docu, reach or even IT/development support. If you feel eBlocker is important: please spread the word, participate and support.

Btw: I know @Benne for many, many years - he‘s a good friend and my former boss. He‘s not the one who gives up. Remember, it was him and @bpr who resurrected eBlocker from the ashes. I believe they will continue if more people show support!

We need a movement! Let’s show a sign and let’s stand together. I am here to continue. Who else is? 

THX!

PS: I took the freedom to move this post to the general discussion forum and make it sticky for more visibility…

@random I'm with you. My employer gives us the opportunity to spend a day and some budget per year for voluntary activities. I will contact you in this regard.

Posted by: @random

keeping me busy who are not willing to support a dime or improving the docu (cheers @robertocravallo et al 😜). 

So this is the famous "privacy protection" you are so fond of? Where you diss users publicly! Interesting!

Just for your information and feel free to look it up: I was part of the crowd founding back in 02/2016.

@robertocravallo That‘s exactly what I meant above.

You are dissing yourself if you feel a contribution in 2016 gives you the right to flood the forum with your „interesting findings“ (Apple is changing certificates), occupying our time with over 50(!) nonsense posts, instead of contributing where you see a need for improvement (Android docu, for instance).

Apparently you even didn‘t get the message that this project has NO personal/order data from the GmbH and especially NO advantage from your past contribution. You are no help, but a burden! This is sooo frustrating. Sorry, I'm loosing patience 😤 

THX! 

Hello,

I think, it is a very good important project, but if there is a force to donate 50 Euro per year to get updates, that then please to be so hornest and go back to "commercial project".

Every professional maybe virus software would be cheaper or in the same price range and there is a official support, if someone have a problem. At this project, my problem wille be solved if there is time (mybe)....

If I have to pay /donate about 50 Euro a year or so; I will official support.

Regards 

Posted by: @guny74

At this project, my problem wille be solved if there is time (mybe)....

I fear, you are missing reality.

Objectively, there is no request in this forum that wasn‘t answered within 24 hours. And it doesn‘t matter if one donated or not. All are treated equally. That‘s our and my personal commitment to the project.

If we turn eBlocker into „commercial“ again, support will not change. As any contribution is to cover operating cost. Not to pay forum support. We are all volunteers not getting paid at all. 

Seriously, I really regret your post very much, since I fear it‘s adds exactly to @Benne‘s fears:

People only want to pay for their support, for their product, for their… - but are not willing to honor the efforts behind the project, see the bigger goal and help altruistically.

Selfish capitalism rules instead of sharing & caring. Sad 😢

THX!  

Hi eblocker team !
I rarely comment on non-technical topics in a forum. But sometimes it has to be.
My "white Cube" has been running since September 2018 - and there have been ups and downs during this time. Economic conditions are one thing - passion is another. Reconciling the two is a really difficult task.
Even if it is only now that one or the other user realizes how time-consuming such a project is, it is indispensable that you, the eblocker team, are shown the appropriate appreciation for your work.
I would like to thank you all for your commitment, your time and the success of the eblocker and the idea to make the internet a bit more "private".

Thank you very much for your words everyone (especially @janhasfun, @joe, @newbie, @robfranssen-fr, @andreas-vieringme-com ...)

• I am very committed investing my time and knowledge to keep the project up and running. 
• On the other hand, I am not committed to cover the cost to continue the project.
• In addition a „business model“ as discusses by many is not on my wish list either. I rather want eBlocker to stay free for everyone on a charity basis.

• Established a legal frame, administered everything lawful
• Motivated and coordinated an international team of core supporters (THANK YOU!)
• Rebuild the technical infrastructure, uptime 99,99%
• Open sourced everything, maintained "white cube" and added support for all Raspberry Pi
• Continued the development, fixed bugs, increased security and added new features
• Set up support forum, helped all users to get up and running, <24h response time
• Established partnerships, raised a sponsor, informed all users continuously
• etc etc etc.

@random as strange as it may sound, I have finished a book on strong privacy (in german though) and it is currently with the lector. Not sure if they will publish it or if I have to self publish (if someone can help with this in Germany, please ping me. If someone can do the graphics for cover and back, please ping me). It contains one chapter solely dedicated to eblocker. And it references eblocker in many other chapters.

Not sure if one will buy the book though, as I also teach privacy and the participation decreases every semester.

Maybe I give it away for free.

Anyhow:

1. Would you like to write the prolog to the book, if it gets published?

2. Would you promote it on your website with the reference to the eblocker chapter. particularly when I self publish for free or little money? This was my hobby with lots of hours (not as much as you did though)

3. Would you proof read the chapter about eBlocker?

@newbie Thanks very much for your dedication to privacy protection - and including eBlocker in your book. 😎

I‘m more on the technical side and happy to review the eBlocker chapter from this perspective. 👍 

For writing a prologue and marketing the book, probably @benne has more talent 🤔

As I‘m taking care of the forum, I‘d rather like to see your post as a separate and dedicated thread. Here the topic is financing eBlocker… - not the best fit, thus.

Would you mind to repost as new thread and delete your post here? I‘ll then do the same 😉 Unfortunately I can only move threads but not individual posts, due to forum tech limits. 

THX!

I'm using eBlocker from the very moment I got it (2 units) as a reward for my backing the project. 
I can't imagine what misery I would have suffered all these years if I hadn't used them. The costs of that would have been a lot of time, money, loss of data and headache after headache. Simple as that. 
BTW, there's a lot of devices in my home connected to the internet (> 35!); I want to pay for safety.
Cheers to the eBlocker team!

Hi,

I myself bought the EB in 2016 as a Lifetime/Family version, because even then I was and still am extremely enthusiastic about the great idea behind it. It made me really sad when I heard that the GmbH became insolvent.

The only hope I had was that the project could come back to life as OpenSource.

---

To be honest, I have no problem with the project being supported by donations and still everyone can benefit from EB, no matter if donor or not. I myself donate more per quarter than some virus software manufacturers charge for their products per year. For me it is and has always been important that the project as such continues to progress and that is exactly why I will not reduce my support as long as the project continues to live.

However, I am also realistic enough to know that not everyone thinks this way and even among the occasional donors there are probably many who at some point no longer think about donating again and then the individual willingness to donate to the EB project (creeping) completely falls asleep.

In order not to bring the whole project into real danger because of this threatening cost situation, it would be more sensible to separate the cost-intensive parts, such as filter lists and the like, and to hand this over to the responsibility of each individual user. I can not really estimate the cost of lists, etc., but before this top project goes to the dogs ...

More important than anything else, in my opinion, is the technical development of the project. And if there is still something left over at the end, one can decide what can/should be done with it.

---

Greeting Wanninger

Dear eBlocker community, lovers, users, supporters, voluntary team, former founders, 

I'm an eBlocker user, supporter (by regular donations since unfortunately I'm not a specialist and promotion of eBlocker in social networks), lover and I'm regularly reading the community posts which are great and very useful thanks to many of you but also special thank to @random, @bpr and @benne.

The emotional post by @benne gave me the impulse to also share with you all my thoughts. I'm not sure what words I should place here after this posts and the comments on the financing of eBlocker, so I just now write what I'm thinking is important form my standpoint.

The eBlocker is amazing!

Beginning of 2019, when I first had contact with, I was not sure about it. But after the installation of the trial version and the great support during the trial version I was pretty fast convinced. Unfortunately eBlocker GmbH had to announce insolvency and I could not bought it. Hence I was quite sad but very lucky in 2020 when I saw the eBlocker is back as a non-profit organization. The eBlocker voluntary team helped me again for several time on a very professional base. Also the extraordinary enthusiasm and elan for driving the project is amazing and my believe in eBlocker has been even more strengthen!

I strongly believe, same experience has been made by many of the eBlocker users, hence I don't understand why users are strict on supporting the eBlocker by donations! As it has been said many times, a 50€ per year from each users will easily cover the yearly costs! That's less than 20 Eurocent per day for an amazing privacy protection that every user can easily afford!

I'm open for any financing model as long as the eBlocker will be kept independent, since this is the main aim of the eBlocker! I've reflected this with my vote a couple of days ago.

And I hope that the the words has been said in the posts related to financing of the eBlocker will reach all of the eBlocker lovers, users, supporters, voluntary team to keep the eBlocker going on and moving on!

I will always support the eBlocker.

Cheers

BonyCB

Hi everyone,

my first indiegogo-contribution to eBlocker was in 2015, followed by a "family-lifetime-contribution". I used eBlocker since then (with some pauses due to technical reasons) and am always totally surprised how much ads I see when I am not using it.

I was totally frustrated when the GmbH got "insolvent" and I did not find any up-to-par-solution for the eBlocker until it got Open-Source. 🙂

I don't want to lose my eBlocker at all! I would let it run even without updates, since as it is now it provides me more security than all the other products I know.

Since I only loosely read the forums, I was not aware that the financing of the "project" (I personally think it is more than a "project") is critical. So i just donated 120€ and hope that this helps a bit.

Regarding the survey, I am not sure what to choose, since all possible options are better than nothing.

But for the future of eBlocker I would like share my thoughts:

0. How to get money
Earning money is not easy without a good product. But eBlocker Open Source UG has a fantastical product. So why is earning money so difficult and problematic?

Maybe the main goals for costumers to pay money are not met. The main motivation (eg for @Benne) is privacy for everybody. This is absolutely nice, altruistic and great! Also the "pay as much as you can" is good as long as it works for everybody. But sometimes even selfish and egoistic reasons from customers can lead to help all costumers.

Maybe the main goals are not only privacy, but also (maybe selfish) financial benefits from the contribution to eBlocker (hence not the profit from the usage of eBlocker, but profits from the contribution TO eBlocker!). Sounds strange, but it isn't:

1. invoices
I work as self-employed and therefor I can deduct my taxes by invoices for things I need for my business-life. I cannot deduct my taxes with "donations to a NON-non-profit-organization" (since I can only deduct by donations to non-profit-organizations).
The same is true for "real" organizations. They cannot reduce their taxes (or profits) without invoices.
If eBlocker Open Source UG would offer to send out "invoices" for the possibility of (time-limited) usage of the features, probably more people would "contribute", since they would get double benefits (privacy and financial).

2. not "family" but "company"
Right now the eBlocker website offers its product and all the benefits to the "personal" use of the eBlocker. But AFAIK you can use the eBlocker also in small (as mine) and medium sized companies. All the undoubtedly great benefits from using eBlocker would be usable by the employees and reduce "the company's security-costs" to a fraction. So maybe a "rebranding" of the "family"-usage to "business"- or "company"-users could generate lots of income/contribution to eBlocker Open Source UG. And that income would help the community and the "free" version. Of course this would only be possible with "invoices" (see above).

I am very willing to (financially) support eBlocker in the future since I am very happy with it, the already implemented features and the security-level it provides!

Please do not hesitate to ask me if I can help in the above mentioned topics.

Keep up the great work!

lx

(edit: bold characters and underlinings)

Good idea to offer option to make a monthly donation; makes it easier to swallow the resulting annual sum. However, setting the lower limit to € 10 per month is not such a good idea as it allows only donations of at least € 120 per year.

Rob

I read that page  https://eblocker.org/en/donations/project-support/  again and found the info about taxes and transaction cost.

These circumstances apparently are considered ‘fact of life’. Ridiculous!
For an altruistic non-profit project with volunteers and intangible assets only, no turnover and funded by donations, there MUST be other options available. Even if it means moving the project to the Bahamas.

Seriously, these circumstances are unacceptable as they are a serious demotivation to pay donations at all, at least to the UV in the present situation.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

The outcome of the poll is clear: Daily updates will be given to donors only (in the very near future).

I've just written a concept that 1. respects the voting and 2. is easy to implement (not to freeze us for months)

Brief concept outline:

• 60 € donation per year (5€/m) on a recurring basis only (for those who want daily updates)
  • No monthly payments possible (due to high transaction costs)
  • IBAN and anonymous payments can not be considered for daily updates (as we have no data to send the key to)
• "lifetime" licenses of the GmbH are not eligible for daily updates (same as OPENSOURCE license users)
• Only manual updates for non donors (not even monthly automatic, as this is a major effort to implement)
• Existing donors will get a key eligible for daily updates until mid 2022 (depending on amount and donor date)

We'll discuss this concept in the next supporters meeting (Aug 10th) and inform everyone by newsletter asap afterwards.

Please refrain from posting ideas like "move to a different country", "change established legal frame", "consider monthly payments", "implement a multi-tier subscription" etc. unless you are the one who takes the burden to make it happen. Then you are very welcome to join the team.

Again: We want to take it easy, get the costs covered and not slow down too much due to implementing a complex "business model". Life is a compromise and the above is the compromise in discussion.

Of course we are happy to hear comments, but please always consider the costs of implementation with any suggestion you have in mind.

Thanks very much.

Of course, the Bahamas was meant as a joke; my criticism about funding the BRD trough MwSt of an non-profit body was not. I therefore instructed PayPal to transfer an annual payment of € 36, covering my proportional share of the eBlocker-costs and reducing my share in VAT to the minimum.

Rob

Sorry, Rob, but the discussion is fruitless. VAT has to be paid in 99% of all developed countries. It has to be paid if one offers a product, a service or such.

Charities are generally exempt from VAT due to the fact that the donor has no personal advantage in exchange for the donation. For example donating for a well in Africa, does not yield to an advantage for the European donor.

Even we run eBlocker as a non-profit where one can donate, in the eyes of the tax authorities the donor gets a personal advantage in exchange (updates, maintenance, new features etc). Therefore, it‘s correct to pay VAT. No doubt.

I personally feel it‘s great to live in a country where laws have to be obeyed. And I am happy to pay my duties for our society. So I am bound 100% to our laws - and will continue to do so - even if it hurts sometimes.

Our problem is not VAT but the „free“ Internet where people don‘t understand that nothing in life comes free. Today I feel that I have failed to message our idea of „free“ where those who can spare a dime support the needy. Sad, but reality. 

Now, as I mentioned several times, I‘m very unhappy about a „business model“ as our approach with eBlocker‘s restart was exactly the opposite.

But I am realistic: if we want eBlocker to sustain - and I want eBlocker to continue - we obviously need to change our „charity mindset“ and run a business again. Capitalism and selfish thinking is the system of choice and alternative models are not accepted by the broader mass. That‘s my conclusion. 

Now we have to deal with it and turn eBlocker (slightly) to a business model where only those who pay will profit. Fine. Let‘s face this and stop arguing about taxes, laws and authorities. They are not the problem but the „free“ mindset in our society is. 

Congratulate Google & Co who implanted the „free“ and brainwashed most of us. Of course it does not hurt to pay with data at the first place. But this profiling undermines our democracy and we will loose our freedom in the long run. See China, for instance, a „free“ country, where everything is surveillanced, people are centrally controlled and put to jail if they talk about freedom and democracy. What a great perspective for all those loving the „free“…

Thank you Benne for diving into the subject to such depth and really, i think we agree to a large extend. Agree about being a law abiding citizen, agree about paying taxes in this particular situation (found some German and European court decisions) and agree that it ‘hurts sometimes’. So, i’ll stop nagging about VAT; just to bad.

On the other hand, i still am of the opinion that someone who can afford a house (rented or owned), pay the electricity bill, pay for an ISP-contract, pay for all sorts of hardware, including the hardware to run an eBlocker, can’t be in a position NOT to be able to pay an annual donation of at least € 36. People who don’t pay all the above costs simply are no eBlocker-users. Would appreciate your arguments if you think otherwise.

For above reason and assuming that ALL 3.000 actual eBlocker-users are able to pay those € 36 per year, i made the payment for € 36 per annum. Those users who are able, but not willing to pay should face a life without eBlocker.

And here my friend, i’ll rest my case and wish you all the luck and succes you need to keep the eBlocker afloat.

Rob

Sorry for coming back tp the "invoice"-thing I mentioned above. Following your argumentation with VAT, you already CAN issue invoices gem §§ 1, 3, 3a, 10, 14II UStG (and sometimes even have to, if it's an organization who's donoring). Ask your Steuerberater.

So even with the "pay as much as you want" you could issue an invoice and try to get away from the "if it's free, it's not worth anything" to "hey, that's a reasonable price for an excellent product" 😉

And apart from the VAT and even if @Benne doesn't want no advice for "change established legal frame" from me (since I cannot make it happen, because unfortunately I am neither a lawyer nor a Steuerberater), a "gemeinnützige UG (gUG)" does NOT have to pay Körperschaftsteuer, Gewerbesteuer AND Umsatzsteuer (VAT). And since you work non-profit anyway, avoiding taxes will help the users and therefor society maybe even better than with taxes.

Please do not hesitate to ask me if you need more explanations.

lxc

Posted by: @lxc

CAN issue invoices

It‘s NOT about invoices. What’s the benefit of an invoice? You get a proper donation receipt today anyhow (seems you have not donated yet 🤔). 100% of our donors are end users not giving a sh*t about an invoice. Big supporters, like DEVK get an invoice with VAT, of course.

International invoices are the next burden. How much VAT do you charge for an intangible good for a Spanish donor? Right, 20% instead of 19%! For a US donor? Right, 0%. For a Norwegian donor?… 🤔

Seriously, we‘ve been thru all of this during commercial times - and I was the one implementing it technically 🤮. Come join the team and implement your great invoice idea. You have NO CLUE what this means!! For NO benefit at all - BTW.

Posted by: @lxc

"change established legal frame" from me (since I cannot make it happen, because unfortunately I am neither a lawyer nor a Steuerberater)

See https://eblocker.org/en/faqs-about-the-project/ :

„Are you charitable / can I deduct my donation from taxes?

No, not in the German tax authority sense. But we are not profit oriented and run the project essentially on a voluntary basis without much administration. Many conditions are attached to the recognition of tax deductible charity status, which entails a high administration effort. Therefore, we are currently not striving for “tax authority compliant” charitable status, but we are nevertheless non-profit in the true sense of the word.“

It‘s silly to discuss this question over and over again. We‘ve considered this in depth at the beginning. What’s your answers to just the simple question „Who is eligible to get the shares and assets if we discontinue the „gemeinnützige UG“? What are the costs internally, in external consulting and for documentation involved to proof the „Gemeinnützigkeit“ each year? And again, what‘s the REAL benefit? None, as VAT is just liquidity. Being „gemeinnützig“ also means VAT from costs is not deductible. So there is NO GAIN at all in practice.

Seriously, we need practitioners who help with the project, but not theorists who have no clue what their clever theories really mean in practice.

Sorry for my harsh words, but I‘m so much done with all these „Schlaumeier“ wasting our time instead if helping out. Come help out, get your hands dirty in work, but stop this theory nonsense, PLEASE!

THX!

@random

Please watch your words! Although I‘m with you at the core, I‘m very unhappy about your wording. ☹️

@lxc 

I‘d like to invite you to get on the phone and discuss your ideas to reflect the real benefit and costs involved in your ideas.

To sum it up from my perspective: We are professionals with some 25 years business experience - each. We have dealt with most of the questions and thought it thru on a value/cost ratio. Today’s legal status is the result with the best ratio. But of course we are open to hear other ideas if they improve this ratio. Let‘s talk!

@benne 

yes, we should keep it simple ... 🙂 

btw ... who cares about invoices 🤣 

@lxc As I have not heard back from you to discuss your ideas in person, I just wanted to friendly remind: We are very open to listen and improve if you feel like contributing. I‘m here and hope for your feedback still…👍

Thanks much.

@all

Thanks everyone for voting and the discussion here.

The outcome is today‘s eBlockerOS 2.7 release, where we limit the automatic daily updates to project supporters only. We are respecting the community vote - even though it‘s not my preferred way. 😥

That‘s why I have commented this change here in English and German

Thanks much everyone for contributing to the discussion - and the project. 😉 

Great software (probably the best), but small community.
It is not well known, needs a review from big youtubers, like Linus did with Pi-Hole.
Not only with broad tech channels, but also some big developers that can analyze your code and validate the security to the big public.
Having hundred of millions using eBlocker, you will find the donations you need, and probably, partners that share your vision.
There is no much I can do, but hope my post serves as incentive to the current community to speak more about this project (social medias, with friends and so one) . From now forward, I will send messages about this to every youtuber that I follow, who knows one decide to take a look.
It is not much, but I will engage with what is available.
Congratulations for your hobby, and keeep puuuushiiiiing!!!! 🙂 

@niksoley I wish more people would think and act like you do. Thank you so much! Your support is highly appreciated👍👍👍

@niksoley 

Great move. 👍🚀 I love your initiative! Thanks very much 👏

If you feel like joining our team you are very welcome. Just drop a line to voluntary @ eBlocker.org. 🤗

Although the topic has been discussed here for a long time and new possibilities are constantly emerging, I would still like to bring it to light once again.
First of all: “I am generally in favor of tools that have to be paid for. To put it simply, certain services have to be paid for. In the interests of the project.”

I've been using the “eBlocker” hardware since March 2016 and paid €329 for the license plus hardware back then, but I can't really get to grips with everything that's written on your website.

Starting with the breakdown of the alleged costs of donations. As I myself am the treasurer of a non-profit organization with a charitable character, I know the costs that arise from donations.

So you should quickly change these areas of the website. Especially as you have a good partner at your side with the GLS Bank. And as long as you can still afford to work with PayPal, you have a problem of your own making. There are better alternatives.